RMG Agent Podcast
Welcome to the RMG Agent Podcast - the podcast curated exclusively for real estate agents by real estate agents. I'm your host, Reed Moore: it is my mission to create wealth and wholeness with everyone I serve. That includes you!
Join me as we embark on a journey to expand your real estate career and unlock your potential. Through candid conversations, expert interviews, and proven strategies, we'll explore the art of client relationships, negotiation tactics, lead generation, business development, and so much more.
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RMG Agent Podcast
Episode 63 - Transforming Investment Dreams into Reality - Master Series with John Thomas Sinclair
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Join us for the next Master Series as we unlock the secrets of successful real estate investing with John Thomas Sinclair, a seasoned expert with over 20 years in the industry. Reed explores with John Thomas the intertwining of real estate success with personal values, emphasizing the importance of trust, gratitude, and community engagement. John Thomas shares strategies for building lasting client relationships while navigating the balance between family life and a thriving real estate career.
Here's what you'll find in this episode:
• Building trust through consistent communication and exceeding client expectations
• Integrating family life with a real estate career to teach valuable lessons
• Creating a mission-driven, sphere-based business approach
• Utilizing effective CRM tools for client engagement and follow-up
• Emphasizing long-term investment strategies over quick flips
• The significance of gratitude and acknowledgment in professional relationships
Tune in for the best tips, tactics and encouragement to begin or expand your real estate investment journey today!
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All of my investors started as my clients. Okay, and they saw that I did what I said. If I say I'm gonna call you on Friday night, I'm going to call you on Friday night, and if I don't, you're at least gonna get a text that says I'm in the middle of something. I'll call you tomorrow. You need to wow your clients. It could be something as simple as going over at eight o'clock on the night to install a thermostat.
Speaker 2Real estate professionals. Welcome back to the RMG Agent Podcast. I'm your host, Reed Moore, and we are going to bring you another one of the master series, and I am thrilled to be here with a dear friend of mine, somebody that is one of two people I call when I need just wise counsel in real estate John Thomas Sinclair. Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, Thanks for being here, my friend. Yeah, so gosh, how long ago did we meet?
Speaker 1When did you move to Coeur d'Alene?
Speaker 2Oh man, so it must have been 10 years ago now. Yeah, wow no-transcript.
Speaker 1So we've been here a while. We have eight kids, three grandkids now, which is crazy, but yeah, we do. We do a lot of investing and are on a small real estate team in Coeur d'Alene.
Speaker 2Excellent. How long have you been in the business now? Since 98. Since 98. Since 98. Okay, excellent. Well, and like we were talking about the reason, I think that's important is when we do the master series, it's all about talking to people that I have the opportunity to say hey, our listeners should listen to this person, and you've been in the industry long enough to get kicked in the teeth more than a few times and get back up again and keep going. Yeah Right, what was the first hard lesson that you learned in real estate? Oh man.
Speaker 1I guess just getting into commission sales and just going from a factory job to just commission sales and realizing that if you don't do the work you don't get the paycheck, yeah. So I don't know that I was actually kicked in the teeth, but you go a while without a paycheck and you feel kicked in the teeth. Sure, that's a fear that I may need some therapy, because I always feel like it's just like right here.
Speaker 2Something bad's going to happen.
Speaker 1You're not going to sell another house ever again or something. Yeah, I don't know if that's all commissioned people or not, but that's definitely a fear that motivates me.
Speaker 2Yeah, there's that interesting kind of motivation that comes with. You know, maybe instead of having one boss, you now have lots of bosses, and if you go to having zero people that you work for, you're, you're functional, you like, you wake up every day and you're out of a job. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. One of the ways I like to start these conversations is just uh, why should somebody listen to you?
Speaker 1I'd say, uh, someone should somebody listen to you. Let's see Someone should listen to me if they were interested in running a mission-driven, sphere-based business, investing I like to invest. I try to invest with little to no money down or at least at the end of the project, get my money back so that I can go do it again. So that's something I feel like I'm pretty good at Raising capital, things like that. And then I guess family life, with having a big family and running my own business. I think there's a lot that I've learned over the years in that realm.
Speaker 2So there's okay, so lots to dive into, but let's just dive into that one. How have you been, because you are an awesome dad. How have you raised a family of eight kids? You have a great marriage and you run a big real estate and investing business. Walk me through what you've learned to be able to navigate that.
Speaker 1Well, definitely couldn't do it without my wife, who's been amazing to handle so much of the pieces with the kids, um, but I would say being busy causes me to focus on, like, uh, special times and just not take them off for granted. Like today's a kid's birthday and we went out specifically for like two hours to do something that he really wanted to do, and we worked that into the work day, so much so that I was apologizing over and over. Hey, sorry, lincoln, I've got to go check on one more house. I got to get the water on in this house, I got to meet the cleaner over here, and then we're going to go do the snowboard thing, and he's used to that, and so incorporating it into my life like that they're not two different things, it's one thing, and all the kids know this is what dad does.
Speaker 2So okay, so in your kids kind of knowing this is what dad does. What have been the positive outcomes of that for your kids?
Building Relationships and Leveraging Real Estate
Speaker 1I think all of them know how to make money. If they, if they had to make money right now without having a an hourly job, they could all go find a way to make money. They're all seem to be very entrepreneurial. Um, I, we listened to podcasts, or I'll tell stories, for I've learned from podcasts as they're with me, so I try to teach them the things along the way.
Speaker 2What are the like? What are the biggest things that you think that they've they've, uh, observed from you you know now that you're watching your kids some of them are older. What are the things that you think that they caught along the way?
Speaker 1Uh, I hope they caught that. Uh, gratefulness, that, like that's a really big part of my life, is to stay grateful for things and show people that I'm grateful. So, staying in a spot of gratitude, um, definitely a work ethic of just always going, appreciating the people that we're working with, appreciating our vendors and, uh, they helped with all our fall festivals where we have lots of people come to our property and we entertain them, and so they've. They've seen that whole process and I really feel like they've gotten a good overview of the whole operation. At least that's my goal that they have Awesome. I hope that they have.
Speaker 2Love it. So you mentioned a mission driven, sphere based business, so walk me through what that means.
Speaker 1I guess you know Dave Ramsey said if you live like no one else, later you can live like no one else. And they also said if you live like no one else, later you can live like no one else. And they also said if you live like no one else, later you can give like no one else. And so we've just recently hit a spot where we're able to donate more and more to more causes and it's been interesting doing that and rolling that into our real estate business and seeing how, by giving of ourselves and joining nonprofits and helping with those nonprofits, how they can also help our business and using what I've learned in my skill sets to be a bridge between all these different communities. So that's my mission driven portion. And then SphereBase is just once you work with us, we're probably not going to leave you alone, and as long as we get along good, there's no sense for you to have anyone else as your real estate agent for any real estate needs.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay. So how did you build that? Like, what, what were? If you were going to take it and make it not like, well, I'm just awesome, right, but say, here's how a listener can get to the place where a significant amount of their business maybe all their business comes from their sphere. Like, walk me through the steps that you would coach them or teach them to do.
Speaker 1My first broker is one of my best friends. Her name is Belinda. She's in a small town and she taught me how to do business and I didn't know anything better and it was the best thing ever. Someone needed a house painted. Belinda was on the phone getting her contractors to help paint the house. If no one showed up, she'd show up with a paintbrush and whatever vacuum the house do, whatever. So she always taught me to go above and beyond. I just thought that's how business was done. Well, whenever you do that and you go above and beyond, people tend to like that and they come back around for more. So then it's just staying in touch with those people.
Speaker 1I'm a big texture. I'm not a phone guy. I will use the phone, but it's not uncommon for me to drive by your house and say, hey, just driving by, thought of you, how's the backyard edition? Or whatever you're doing, people love to. They love to bring you along for that process. You're the only one who saw the house before and so if you know that they're doing something, that's an easy way to stay in touch with people. If someone's house in the neighborhood happens to go pending or active, it's not uncommon for me to just randomly text it. Hey, rita, just saw that your neighbor two doors down is on the market Thought you'd like to know. So it's super easy touches. I'm not usually ever asking for anything.
Speaker 2Okay, usually ever asking for anything. Okay, so you're doing that, and then what do you do to underwrite that that's so. So there's a lot of just I love my people, I'm paying attention and it's top of mind that I should be talking to them. What do you do behind the scenes to systematically kind of bridge the gap? We have a?
Speaker 1great CRM. We use a program called follow up boss. That's worked really great for us. We've tried other things. In the whole time I've thought Follow Up Boss was so good that I didn't ever leave it, so I was paying for two systems for a while, Anyway. So people are in there and we can definitely sort by who we haven't talked to or who hasn't been touched. Anniversaries, birthdates, things like that are all in there. We don't always do that, but they're there and if we want a touch it's all in the system and it's going to come up as a reminder.
Speaker 2Awesome, okay, and then what about? Do you do newsletters? Do you do anything like that?
Speaker 1We do emails once a month.
Speaker 2Okay, what does an email from you?
Speaker 1consist of? It's very simple. I used to have it like big and want beautiful graphics and I would get all the emails from, maybe, teams like yours and they're all beautiful and they've got a big admin to put them together and my coach got on to me and said keep it simple. So a few bullet points. It's a topic. A few bullet points, a little bit about the market. That's always the goal.
Speaker 2Okay. So one of the things I've watched you do over the years is use your real estate business to lever yourself into being an investor, a very accomplished investor, right, and it's interesting because I think you use real estate sales and real estate sales business for exactly what it's meant to do, which is to print cash, make money, to be able to turn around and now put that money to work. Was that always something that you did, or was there a transition?
Speaker 1I was fortunate again with having Belinda as my first broker. She's always had more than 50 rentals, so it wasn't uncommon for me to think, oh, one day I'm going to have a lot of rentals. Another good friend in Tennessee was a guy named Mike Jones who worked at a factory with me, and he took me aside when I was like 19 years old and told me how he got to buying properties, and then I'd watch him and his wife at the time buy properties and fix them up. And he had a lot of properties too. So I had mentors around me who had these and then I got all my experience about investing, initially from books like Rich Dad, poor Dad, or Buying Real Estate With no Money Down. I forgot the guy's name. He's long gone now, but anyway, it all just seemed attainable. It was like if you do this, you can get that, and so once I kind of figured out, oh, how this works, then you can do it again and again, and again, and I enjoyed it. We like working on the houses and watching the transformation.
Building a Real Estate Portfolio
Speaker 2Got it, so do um. So you do you. You flip properties, but then you also hold properties. How many, how many doors do you and your partners hold? Right now? We've got 81 properties, okay, 81 units, 81 units, awesome, okay. And what was? How long did it take you to get there?
Speaker 1We added another one last week. So we're always going. Bought the first property in 98. So, okay, got it. Yeah, along the way we've bought a couple of big ones, maybe a 10 unit or a 17 unit. That really helped, but kind of always on the lookout.
Speaker 2Okay, so you're you're just constantly flipping properties and buying and holding properties and just building your portfolio.
Speaker 1Yeah, really rarely flip. We really try to always hold. It's always if we can get into the property and get financing need to keep it.
Speaker 2Yeah. So if somebody is listening to this and they're building their real estate career like my, my mindset is you need to go make. Yeah. So if somebody is listening to this and they're building their real estate career, like my mindset is you need to go make active income so that way you can feed your family, and then that's going to fuel your investing. That's because you're smart.
Speaker 1Thank you, I didn't know where that was going to go. No, seriously, a lot of people think it's an easy overnight thing that you can do, but the truth is you do need some good income to make this work. And then, when you get that good income, you don't need to go to Disneyland every year or you need to be frugal with it and invest that, set it aside.
Speaker 2Yeah, so okay. So you started doing that a long time ago and you've been building that portfolio and, um, and how did you, um, uh, how did you get started with being somebody who was trustworthy with other people's money? Because I'm guessing that you didn't fund all of this yourself. You used hard money or other people's money. Was there a point where people started trusting you with being the guy to deploy their capital?
Speaker 1Yeah, yes, there was a point I was working for some investors as a real estate agent and Amanda and I had found a great deal on a property and I really wanted it and we just couldn't figure out a way to make it work without selling another property. And so I was at one of my investors rehabs while he was working at us telling me about the project, kind of you know, kind of hinting. But it didn't come out and ask for the money and we just talked and he said, well, jt, do you need to borrow some money?
Speaker 2It was really that easy.
Speaker 1He had all the terms which were atrocious. Looking back they weren't great terms, but it got us going. And then we sold our house, paid him off and just kind of kept doing that with that private investor. And that showed me how you could work with a private investor and the power of a private investor. And I guess before that my first broker had always taught me you should ask the seller hey, do you want to cash out this property or would you like to be the investor and make some money on this as the lender? Would you like to be the lender and make money? Just as the lender, you get interest. I handle the leaky toilets, I handle everything, and so that was easy for me because I thought that's what you ask every seller. Yeah. So I pretty much do ask every seller, not thinking that I'm specifically going to buy it, but it's a good thing to know. Would you like to own or finance this?
Speaker 2Yeah, it's so interesting because it's easy in real estate sales to get blinders on and just go out and say my job is to make you the most amount of money in the least amount of time, with the least amount of hassle.
Speaker 2The problem with that is we have no idea if that's actually what that person wants and a lot of times, if we're not there to be the trusted guide and educate them, they don't necessarily know what options are available to them, even like owner financing. My parents, who have not made a ton of money over their life but have been really wise with their money, they carry a note on a property right now that makes them $6,000 a month in passive cash flow. And if you've been frugal and you don't live a big life like a big expensive life, $6,000 a month is a lot of money. Right, that's really good, and there's just those opportunities. So how does somebody who doesn't grow up with your pedigree start changing their mindset around how to communicate with a buyer or a seller especially a seller around the options that are available to them and then putting themselves in the path of opportunity?
Speaker 1I think you need to take yourself out of it. Your self may think this person needs the most amount of money and what they really want is to be done with the house right now, yeah. And so you really need to just ask questions and find out what they want, and ask them lots of questions to help them find out what they want. So ask those questions like are you actually interested in moving all your couches and furnitures and painting and decluttering your house, or might you just want a cash offer, as is? We work with, as is, investors who come in and they pay cash for properties like this? And then you go through those scenarios.
Speaker 1I could get you this as is. We could close an X amount of days and it's super easy. There's not going to be inspections or no hassle, it's just going to be very easy. Or I can help you do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we could get you this number, yeah. And be realistic whenever you're explaining what it's going to take to get from here to here, because, depending on where they're at, they may have zero desire to get here and they may just be totally fine right here. You can sell my house in two weeks and I can have three weeks after possession to move out and buy my next whatever and that may be completely appealing to them. Yeah.
Speaker 2I did a um, I did a flip, uh, two years ago and I know it was last year. I did a flip last year and I gave the people the options and they couldn't wrap their head around the gap between here's what this property is worth, all fixed up and everything, and here's what I'll give you for it. And so I actually gave them my spreadsheet that I ran my numbers on and I literally just walked them through every line. I said this is the amount of money that I will make in six months when all of these things are done, and here's the expense. And they looked at that and they said, yeah, there's no way we're going to do that and I bought the house. Right. There's a very logical, you know there can be. If somebody's intimidated by this whole conversation process, there's this limiting belief that pops in and that is well. If you buy things for cash, like you know you're, you're screwing the seller and it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with what are their needs.
Speaker 1Yeah, In my scenario I never said that I was going to be the buyer. It's just we have buyers like this and if I'm in a position to buy it, I'm not hiding that. It's my wife and I are buying properties and we'd like to buy this one. Yeah, so we can give you this number.
Speaker 2Yeah. So walk me through. If you were a newer agent or let's just say you were newer to this mindset what would be your path to get started down this road of number one investing, but number two being somebody who's trusted or trustworthy with other people's money?
Speaker 1So to be trustworthy with their money. Yeah, all of my investors started as my clients. Okay, and they saw that I did what I said. If I say I'm going to call you on Friday night, I'm going to call you on Friday night, and if I don't, you're at least going to get a text that says I'm in the middle of something, I'll call you tomorrow, or whatever. So there is that communication. You can't drop the ball Like if you say you're going to do it, you. So it doesn't even have to be real estate investing.
Speaker 1I think Diana or somebody said how you act in the small things is how you act in the big things. So they see that pattern of when JT says something, he's going to follow through with it. When he gives us numbers on our evaluations, they're going to be close, he's trustworthy. So I think that would be the biggest thing. But it kind of all goes back to you do need a successful business somewhere that's showing them success in that business too. So it's all about social success with, with whatever it is. So he's successful selling houses, successful flipping houses, and then, once you do your first rehab, flip whatever, share that social success so that people can see oh, they took this from that and turned it into something amazing and share the whole thing. We're now getting $2,000 a month for rent it's going for. Our mortgage is $1,400 or wherever the situation is, and let them know. Okay, he understands all of these things, so they feel very confident with that.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's interesting because my experience with the people that I've worked with with hard money is one is the people I've worked with have just been awesome, right, number two. They're not dumb or easily fleeced and it's because they're they're the guys that will look you in the eye and try to figure out who are you right and and and uh, we've done a lot of deals that started out with a handshake and just getting to know each other and, by the way, here's my track record and it's really interesting because if you want access over a long period of time to, to be the trusted resource for other people and to have them as a as a resource for you, it requires a lot of consistency over a lot of years. Right, at least that's been my experience.
Speaker 1Yeah, I would definitely agree, and it's only going to get easier to the more and more you do yes, yeah, so okay.
Building Discipline and Long-Term Success
Speaker 2So what about? What about the ability? So there's, there's a piece of investing that's just intoxicating, it's fun, and so then you'll have people that they want to invest for the sake of investing, but the deal doesn't make sense. How do you build the discipline to say no to a deal or to know how to say yes?
Speaker 1Yeah Well, for me it's easy because I usually always want to refinance out. With a normal bank interest rates as high as they are now. That hasn't been the norm, but historically my goal has always been to buy a house, fix it up, get it rented, get it performing, and then go to a bank, get it refinancedanced, pay off that private lender. So to do that I always had to have 20, 20, 25 equity on the back end. So after I purchase it, do all of the rehabs, get it rented it needs to be worth 25 more than I have into it and um. So that's how I would always run my numbers. So I would just back all of that out from the start and if it didn't make sense I wouldn't buy it.
Speaker 1Because our goal we are successful in selling real estate, but I'm not really successful enough to have as many doors as I do and have 25% from the get-go in all of these properties. So that was kind of our model all along and I've just always been doing that. I didn't know it was called BRR Sure, until I was watching some podcast. I called my partner hey that thing we've been doing.
Speaker 1It's called BRR.
Speaker 2What do you?
Speaker 1mean, somebody wrote a book on it and he said what do you mean? I tell him he's like oh, yeah, that's what we do. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, man, we've been doing this thing anyway. So that keeps me very. I can't fudge those numbers or in the end, that money is going to be out of my pocket and I'm just really stingy with my own money. I don't like doing that.
Speaker 2Yeah, I love that because it builds and that's a big buffer. Right, there's a lot of people that would flip properties that you couldn't hold because of that. And there's this I've experienced this personally right, where, here's the number I need to make, but I would do it for this, and that's kind of lean, but I'd probably still do it. And oh, what the heck, why not? Right? And you start getting more and more lean and there's a discipline or lack of discipline there if you don't have some sort of standard that you stick to. Okay, so give me your pitch or your case for not flipping properties but holding them right. Hey, I can flip this property. I make 60 Gs.
Speaker 1Why don't you do that and we did, we definitely did To get started. We would flip a lot of properties.
Speaker 1With enough time, I saw what those properties were worth three four, five years later, yes, saw what those properties were worth three, four, five years later, yes, and so there does come a point in your career, if you're going to do this, where you have to flip the switch and say it would be nice to have that $20,000, $30,000 right now, like we could go to Disneyland, we could buy the boat, we could do whatever. Or we could just trick ourselves into getting joy out of refinancing it, calling that our win and thinking long-term of refinancing it, calling that our win and thinking long-term. And Robert Kiyosaki once said like don't ever sell the asset. If you need money out of it, just refinance it.
Speaker 1Now he wasn't talking like right after you bought it, but later, like 10 years later, if you need money, don't refinance it, just pull that. I mean, don't sell it, just pull that money out in the form of a refinance and then have the tenants pay for it again. And so that always stuck to me Like we could control this asset, we could keep it. As long as I keep doing well in my real estate business, I don't really need that flip money. And just kind of had to do a mental game in my head, our head, to say it's going to be better in the long run if we can keep this asset.
Speaker 2It's. It's amazing Cause I have another buddy of mine that was on the podcast and he um, he, he bought, he's bought properties for years and years and years. He's probably has a hundred doors or somewhere, somewhere similar to you, and a good number of those purchases weren't extraordinary deals at the time, but he bought them 20 years ago and now you look at it and he looks like a genius because the house is worth three or four times what he paid for it. That's not even including his debt. Pay down right, when you look at $30,000 worth versus $300,000, just because of your patience, that's significant. Yeah, absolutely so, okay, so where?
Speaker 2If you were talking to an agent right now and they were, they were wanting to just to jump in and do all of these things all at once and you were to say, okay, listen, this is all great, you need to do this for your future, but you need to actually just go your, build your real estate sales practice right. What would you tell them to do? What's just the thing? That that that maybe they want to hear, maybe they don't want to hear. That would be your advice as the foundation for getting where you've gotten.
Speaker 1Again, a very basic level. You need to wow your clients. It could be something as simple as going over at 8 o'clock on a night to install a thermostat because the seller stole the last one, or whatever may have happened, or having that person in your pocket that you can call to go service that or do that. You don't actually have to do the work, but I'd say you need to wow your clients as an agent and then that's going to make them feel better. And I think it was Maya Angelou who said people don't remember what you do or how you.
Speaker 1What is it? People don't remember what you do or how you. What is it? People don't remember how you, what you do or what you say, but they remember how you make them feel yeah. And so if you can go above and beyond and make them feel, wow, reed really cares for us and they're going to tell other people about that. So I know that's not an easy thing to you know, put it in your little one, three, five and go into your business plan, but that's it. When something comes up, you need to be the hero and put your cape on. And at the office, stephen and I will joke about it Like, hey, I'm putting my cape on, I'm going to go and install a thermostat, or whatever the situation may be.
Speaker 2It's interesting because it actually strikes me as the same discipline that you have as an investor, and that is that I'm not installing a thermostat. I am doing something now that will pay off throughout the next 10 years with their referrals and their children and their friends' friends. Right, it really is an investment. Right, it seems like the same mindset.
Speaker 1Yeah, you need to look at each seller that you're servicing, as you know. How am I going to make them open their mouth and tell everyone else in their network about how great it was working with us?
Speaker 2So is there anything else that would just be kind of like wisdom that you want to impart to to an agent to help them get from where they are to where you are? That sounds pretentious, doesn't it? The reality is like you're at a place that that anybody in this industry should want to be.
Cultivating Gratitude for Success
Speaker 1I guess I would say don't be pretentious, stay grateful. I truly think that's a superpower is to stay grateful and let people know you're grateful. Send them note cards. I make a daily habit of sending out grateful cards or thank you cards or something along those lines, but I almost think that I do that for a selfish reason. It makes me feel really good. It puts me in a super positive mindset to appreciate people and let them know how much I appreciate them or what traits that I appreciate about them, and then I just find myself having a good day. So I like to do that. Every morning I go into the office and I write some thank you cards and I think it makes people feel pretty good and shows appreciation.
Speaker 2I love it. One of the things you said there I thought was really great is I think a lot of people see themselves as grateful or giving, but it's different being grateful, which is already great, and other people actually experiencing it because you took action on your gratitude. That's kind of the extension of that superpower, it seems like.
Speaker 1Maybe, so I think I came across it accidentally. I've always kind of written thank you cards, but I just kind of noticed, wow, this actually makes me feel good.
Speaker 1And whenever that clicked, I was like I'm going to do this more because this really helps me and if it's making them feel good too, then that makes me feel good. To make them feel good and it's not fake, my thank you cards are something that I generally appreciate. With them it's usually like, hey, you read up, I appreciate it, the way that you've handled X, Y, Z or yeah, it's something about them that I'm showing gratitude towards.
Speaker 2Yeah, I love it and I just I love the way that you go about life and business um, uh, how uh organic it seems, and and just the incredible amount of success that you've had doing it that way consistently over the years. So, uh, man, thank you so much for taking the time to share your wisdom and knowledge and, uh, you're definitely a master of the craft, my friend. Oh, thanks, man. Awesome, appreciate it. All right guys finishing up here with John Thomas Sinclair Uh, thank you for being here for another master series. As always, we're here to impact, empower and encourage you in your real estate career. Take care everybody.